It would be helpful to see the actual California plumbing code text on this detail and also useful to know what long-term testing and field experience have shown about the safety and reliability of this approach. Others (building code inspector or home inspector) should write up the issue, and because it's a life-safety concern, ought to notify all parties concerned, including owners and occupants of the building - in writing and orally. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment. phone (610) 252-7355, original source http://www.harvel.com/piping-systems/gf-harvel-cpvc-industrial-pipe, copy on file as GF_CPVC Industrial Pipe _ CPVC Pipe.pdf. I looked through the code book (IRC) and can't find any where that states it must be mechanically attached. All of them are improper. So, which should it be? conditioner may discharge to a floor served by a floor drain so as While TPR valves may come with an instruction to test the valve annually, in five decades of building inspections of thousands of buildings we have not found more than a handful of building owners who ever test a relief valve nor even know of that requirement. I like the pigtail approach because it offers a better chance for the owner to notice if there's a drip drip leak Watch out: a TPR valve not properly located risks failing to respond adequately to over-temperature or over-pressure in the water heater, risking a BLEVE explosion. Here we describe the installation specifications for TPR valve drain line piping and we include an extensive list of discharge tube installation or condition defects, most of which are unsafe. The purpose of this drain line is to discharge potentially hot scalding water to a safe location so that a bystander is not scalded. If the other end of that line is not already readily visible and in a location where it would be noticed, that too would be unsafe and improper.The FIX for this unsafe condition is usually trivial: the discharge tube must be routed only "downwards" from the TP valve outlet opening, and the end of the discharge tube must be in a readily accessible, visible, and safe location. Temperature and pressure relief valves shall be installed so that the sensing element of the valve extends into the heater tank and monitors the temperature in the top 6 inches of the heater or tank. A sump pit and pump exist in the area. During a routine maintenance, But I might not object to use of the same tubing connecting properly between a valve's discharge opening and a proper destination. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater. Even though the discharge of water into an area may not, in your opinion, cause damage to the building, the point of discharge must be visible so that someone can spot trouble (leaks) before a catastrophe occurs. There are other things I might mention. No one called out the use of that piping material itself as a hazard, but there can be hazards nonetheless depending on how that tube is routed - such as to a hidden location without a Tundish or routed "up" from the TP valve itself. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping. Can you help me decide what the best action would be? Discharge line must be same size as valve outlet, be pitched down for free draining, and have no shut-off valve or obstructions throughout its entire length. At the time, we immediately requested the heating company to replace the plastic and paid a substantial amount of money to do this. Do not pipe the TP valve discharge tube UP - the result (because dripping or leaks can remain in the piping and valve opening) can be a clogged, failed TP valve and a fatal BLEVE explosion. Normally a hydronic heating boiler doesn't run over 30 psi, Fillip, the valve should not be leaking, but before replacing it you need to know why it's leaky, as the problem may not be the valve. (b) The user shall maintain all pressure relieving devices in good operating condition. - B.N. (Search InspectApedia.com for that term)Turn off the boiler to avoid damaging it. cross connection control device or assembly, or a furnace or air 5 (b) The discharge pipe and fittings shall have a diameter not less than the diameter of the relief valve outlet. Special thanks to reader Bryce Nesbitt for bringing to our attention the spiral tubing described as a copper pigtail that we'd describe as a pigtail drain for up-routed pressure relief valve discharge drain lines. You don't even know you don't know it. In my opinion it's unreliable as shown and could be unsafe and as I opine with comments in the articles I cite: RELIEF VALVE DISCHARGE TUBE - you are on this page. We are puzzled. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section 605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1. On 2019-11-11 by (mod) - is it ok for the TP valve to drip or leak? What the home inspector said was perfectly correct and represents a safety hazard. 13 March 2015 Stan Stan the Inspector Man said: Can 3/4-inch flexible copper tubing sections (with FIP ends) be legally used in any part of a water heater's T&P discharge line? Terminate not more than 6 inches (152 mm) and not less than two times the discharge pipe diameter above the floor or waste receptor flood level rim. That passage of water leaves scale that ultimately blocks the valve. Pigtail uprouted TPR for below grade basements (PUTPRfbGB)? 3. RELIEF VALVE DISCHARGE TUBE at InspectApedia.com - online encyclopedia of building & environmental inspection, testing, diagnosis, repair, & problem prevention advice. When? Water heater rocket myth: Mythbusters water heater explosion video produced in 2007, web search Sept 25 2010, original source: 13. On 2020-11-23 - can I just dump the T&P valve into a crawl space under a slab? without backing up to the valve. 6. | Materials shall be rated at not less than the operating temperature of the system and approved for such use. "A substantial amount of money" worries me. - white plastic discharge tube not to code? 2. Her son, playing with friends in the basement, lost an eye when he and a pal opened the discharge lever on a heating boiler, scalding his face and ruining his left eye forever. 4. The company points out that ANY backpressure on a conventional pressure relief valve of the type commonly used on residential water heaters (disc and spring type design) will see a reduction of its opening response if there is any backpressure on the valve, such as from debris, or even from standing water in a discharge tube piped upwards (though I suspect the pressure difference in most buildings would be small). If the TPR valve is connected off of a tapping on the top of the water heater (as is on some models) then there's probably plenty of working space there and the discharge tube could be quite close to the wall - but considering the practical warnings I gave above. The temperature steam rating of a combination temperature and pressure relief valve or valves shall equal or exceed the energy input rating in BTU per hour of the water heater. In sum, a relief valve discharge tube that is not pointing downwards may become unsafe. 7. No shutoff valve shall be installed between the relief valve and the system. (7) (a) 2. and (8). Some model and adopted building and plumbing codes expressly prohibit discharging the TPR valve out of the room containing the heating appliance that it is intended to protect. The indirect or local waste piping serving a water heater With the TPR going outside a drip drip could go unnoticed a very long time. When a relief valve continues to leak it may become damaged and then fail to operate when an unsafe pressure or temperature occurs. Each pressure relief valve shall be an approved automatic type with drain, and each such relief valve shall be set at a pressure of not more than 150 psi (1034 kPa). Is there a legal option of looping the relief valve discharge tube up through the band board of my house so it can drain to the outside? Discharge line must always be installed to avoid water damage and scalding injury, when valve operates. Take a look at where the TPR valve is connected to your water heater; if it's on a side (near the top of course) then you need working space for the valve. Could the same be done with the condensate line? - R.N. 2. 5. A slow drip type leak at this pressure relief valve may never provide enough heat to shut off the equipment but might clog the valve, and. Or where can I find it in writing? At above right a reducing elbow was used to shrink the 3/4" horizontal T&P drain line (from the TPR valve mouth) to 1/2" for the vertical run to the floor. Doug. It's worth noting to your landlord both orally and in writing immediately that, More information is at RELIEF VALVE, WATER HEATER, Thank you. I'd like to see photos of the relief valves that you mention and of their discharge tubes. 7/11/2013. 13. But how dangerous is it to omit a discharge drain tube on a TPR valve? Only a complete fool would do what we found on this boiler. - Kevin 7/26/2011. Maybe to get it out of the way of a basketball or something. Details of our discussion with Mr. Nesbitt are given below. I agree that the worst does not always happen; if it did there would be no doubters. That may be considerably more. Lowering of the discharge line to a point below the valve and to adversely affect floats by means of a fixed air gap installed in The risk includes destructive, even fatal BLEVE EXPLOSIONS.Please read RELIEF VALVE LEAKS for details and let me know if any questions remain. There is water FLOWING from the DISCHARGE TUBE on my Triangle Tube, indirect fired water heater. In my opinion, the safest design, especially where we're avoiding a very dangerous catastrophe (BLEVE) is the simplest one with fewest parts that need to work to protect the building and its occupants. Call your service company as this is va safety concern. I wish the water heater were red-tagged, but you know, I'm only a ten ant. 11. This doesn't make any sense to me. For your TPR pages, my local AJH having dealt with too many botched basement TPR's under the California Plumbing Code, has adopted this - Bryce Nesbitt, [relief valve that drains upwards and uses a "pigtail", presumably a temperature sensor shutoff control, at its base - Ed.]. Should I have the plumber attach it or let it ride? Back in 2016, Justin Phillips at AICHE, something similar: " The most effective and efficient mitigation or elimination of risk is achieved at the earliest juncture and at the most fundamental level, The most effective and efficient mitigation or elimination of risk is achieved at the earliest juncture and at the most fundamental level, (Justin 2016). The small diameter and flow resistance of the coiled tubing causes any significant volume of TPR valve discharge to be routed up through the vertical TPR valve drain line from the tee, and the combination of tee and short copper nipple connected to the wound copper tubing are probably intended to prevent standing water or debris accumulation at the mouth of the TPR valve itself. The result over time could be that the valve becomes clogged and would then fail to open in a true emergency - risking, ultimately a dangerous BLEVE or water heater explosion.Watch out: ALSO, I suspect from the photo that your water heater has a discharge tube that directs the valve outlet into a wall and going to who knows where. The terminal end of the pipe shall not be threaded. You offered no California code source or citation that clarifies the pigtail installation - if you can offer that it would be most helpful. The overflow line is higher than the Temperature and Pressure Relief (T & P) valve. I have a practical answer and a legal answer.' - How close Can a T and P discharge Pipe be to dry wall, How close Can a T and P discharge Pipe be to dry wall. Noticing that a TPR discharge tube was missing on a heating boiler during a home inspection I [DF] pointed out this safety hazard to my client while the real estate agent nearby frowned at my "old maid" trouble-making personality. Watch out: While it is possible to "open" a boiler TP relief valve by lifting its "test" lever, unless you are a trained heating service technician or plumber, and unless you have a spare TP valve of the proper size in your hand, we advise against "testing" a TP relief valve by opening this lever. Is there any requirement that the fitting and pipe extension is required to be made from copper? I am in the process of selling a condo I own. 5 (a) The discharge pipe and fittings shall be made of a material acceptable for water distribution piping in accordance with s.Comm 84.30 (4) (e) 1. Similarly, discharging a relief valve leakage or drip to a location where the leak or drip cannot be observed is a dangerous practice because the leak can go unnoticed, causing failure to recognize an unsafe condition. That's because if the valve should develop a small leak or be discharged on occasion, the up-routed discharge tube will keep water and debris remaining in the tube at the valve outlet where debris or mineral accumulation clog the valve or interfere with its operating spring. But it is in all events dangerous, illegal, and plain stupid to ever install a shutoff valve or any other sort of "cap" on a pressure/temperature relief valve. Does TP valve on residential water heater use a p-trap - Xavier, No Xavier, the discharge from a TP valve should not be trapped it's discharge end should be visible. Watch out: you should be concerned - the system may be or may become unsafe. You'd probably find these same instructions in the installation manual for the water heater.The COST for this repair should be no more than a simple plumbing service call and perhaps a few piping connections. SAFETY VALVES AND PRESSURE RELIEVING DEVICES, BOILERS, WATER HEATER INSTALLATION INFORMATION, Bulletin 293, 3 THINGS TO AVOID WHEN INSTALLING & OPERATING SAFETY VALVES, THE SAFETY RELIEF VALVE HANDBOOK: DESIGN AND USE OF PROCESS SAFETY VALVES TO ASME AND INTERNATIONAL CODES AND STANDARDS, Building Owner Water Heater Safety Notice, HOME INSPECTION EDUCATION COURSES (Canada), HOME INSPECTION EDUCATION: HOME STUDY COURSES, Other sections of this mechanical code are given, The relief valve discharge tube is down-sized, smaller than the opening of the relief valve itself, reducing the valve's ability to release heat, pressure, energy, should the heater over-heat. temperature and pressure relief valve or water treatment device Hi there just wondering why my TPR doesn't discharge at all and i tested it by lifting the lever and it was flowing freely outside and stopped when i released it back?Is that normal?Thanks. Continue readingat RELIEF VALVE LEAKS or select a topic from the closely-related articles below, or see the complete ARTICLE INDEX. 5 (d) No valve may be installed in the discharge pipe. Either the end of the drain needs to be visible or if your local codes permit, you can install a Tundish - search InspectApedia for TUNDISH to read about use of that device. The plastic Reliance -brand T&P discharge pipe I show here is sold by plumbing suppliers locally and on-line for about $12. No shut off valve or other restricting device may be installed between the water heater or storage tank and the combination temperature and pressure relief valve. Would it be acceptable to allow the T&P valve to simply dump into the crushed rock in the crawl space? Terminate not more than 6 inches (152 mm) above and not less than two times the discharge pipe diameter above the floor or flood level rim of the waste receptor. On 2020-02-21 by Eleni if you are an inspector or plumber who wants to be credited as a technical contributor I can add your contact info there. 2022/01/11. A water-heating device connected to a separate storage tank and having valves between said heater and tank shall be provided with an approved water pressure relief valve. 6. Note: appearance of your Comment below may be delayed: if your comment contains an image, web link, or text that looks to the software as if it might be a web link, your posting will appear after it has been approved by a moderator. (a) Each power boiler, nuclear boiler, and high temperature water boiler shall have safety valves or pressure relieving devices constructed, stamped and installed in accordance with the applicable section of the Code, except: (1) For existing installations the stamping required by the Code at the time of original installation may be accepted until the valves are replaced. Really? when installed in accordance with sub. It was fun to pull the string, pretending it was a steam boat whistle, and to see the burst of steamy hot water emerge from the end of the discharge line. I am a tenant who found this the other day on a 35 year old water heater: (see pics). Just how fast that unsafe condition occurs depends on variables including. They consider it legal under the California Plumbing Code, and thus not an AMMR, just an accepted method. may discharge through the cover of a clear water sump so as not not to create a health or safety hazard. if the installation for my boiler said use 50psi and the tech put in 30psi relief valve. If for example someone installed a flexible line to replace a straight downtube running down the side of a water heater from the TP valve, I'd be worried that some fool would come along and bend the tubing "up" - as nothing prevents them from doing so. (d) Safety devices: Water heaters shall be equipped with safety devices as specified in this paragraph. Smith's Form No. Maybe the water heater needs to be replaced: if it's leaking or badly-corroded, for example. Smith's Form No. OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY, On 2021-01-18 by (mod) by no means do I want to sound glib; and I know it's FAR too easy to sit in some distant spot and tell someone else to just spend money. This interesting TPR test lever addition was explained by the building owner. In fact you might want to check out the opinion at It's way better than the method of putting a manual drain valve there, which of course will be left in the wrong position. A temperature sensor or something else? by R J At left we see a typical TPR valve installation (by the author) including the vertical 3/4" copper drain piping that will discharge any T&P valve spillage to the floor. A water system containing storage water heating equipment shall be provided with an approved, listed, adequately sized combination temperature and pressure-relief valve, except for listed nonstorage instantaneous heaters having an inside diameter of not more than 3 inches (80 mm). OPINION: If the small diameter pigtail drain clogs the homeowner will never know it. concerning the heating element, it was suggested that it might be impossible to get a replacement part for that as well. Sobbing she told me that she was grateful that inspectors would routinely point-out this hazard. Each such combination temperature and pressure-relief valve shall be provided with a drain in accordance with Section 608.5. The outlet end of such tubing shall be fastened in place. The TPR valve needs to be installed in a tapping on the heater itself, near the top or on the top, as provided by the manufacturer; if you give the brand and model of water heater we may be able to find the installation manual that will show those exact details. On 2020-07-15 by Doug H The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall: 9. To "stop" an annoying boiler drip at the pressure temperature relief valve, the mechanic installed a short length of pipe capped by a drain valve which he could simply shut. Some details including the design, the pigtail connection (presumably to a shutoff control) and research supporting this up-draining valve would be helpful. My client burst into tears. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q, [13] In our OPINION that is an unsafe and questionable relief valve design in that any TPR that drains "up" is at risk of ultimately depositing mineral salts that can lead to the valve refusing to open in response to an over-temperature or over-pressure condition in the boiler, risking a catastrophic BLEVE explosion. The discharge pipe may not be threaded. /UNLIME Specific De liming Instructions for use with Up-N-Down Transfer U.S. An hour of plumber's time to install the tube costs $50. Perhaps if I explain the concern in my own words it will be more clear:The temperature/pressure relief valve on a water heater is connected to a drain line so that if the valve opens someone nearby is not shot in the face with hot water. Smith Water Products Company - hotwater.com/lit/training/4800r9.pdf 800-433-2545 - 01/07/2009. as your photos shows improper and dangerous modifications: "Red tagging" is most-often done by a service technician. Plastic discharge tube extensions may be unsafe if the plastic is a type that may deteriorate, melt, or rupture when exposed to hot water. 4800 Rev. An unsafe TPR drain line installation is shown at the top of this page. 8 Why? I appreciate the significant convenience of being able to route a TPR valve discharge line up and thence horizontally and then "down" to a more-convenient discharge location, and now that we've got your added detail I understand the theory of a copper pigtail drain on the down-end of a Tee into which the water heater or boiler TPR valve is discharging. Practically - adding another messy detail, if your water heater sits in a drip or spill tray then the bottom of the discharge pipe will have to jog out and over and down to get past the outer edge of the drip tray, so the drip tray itself is going to space the heater and most of the discharge pipe a bit more-distant from the wall. For example this gas fueled American Standard water heater - just an EXAMPLE - your heater may differ, lets the heater itself be as close as 2 inches from a wall, but that does NOT consider space to get the TPR valve on and off. The photos above illustrates this unsafe installation practice: a 1/2" copper tube has been installed through a reducing fitting into the mouth or piping of a 3/4" diameter TPR valve. Does this suggest that I need to replace the T&P relief valve? In our OPINION the design you show violates CA 608.5 Discharge Piping 608.5 Discharge Piping - The discharge piping serving a temperature relief valve, pressure relief valve, or combination of both shall have no valves, obstructions, or means of isolation and be provided with the following: Equal to the size of the valve outlet and shall discharge full size to the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing down. Or use the SEARCH BOX found below to Ask a Question or Search InspectApedia. This is probably not the best or legal solution but it would keep my basement from flooding (so long as sump pump operates.) Be constructed of those materials indicated in Section P2906.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1. The kitchen under sink outlet pipes are higher than the relief valve pipe.Your expert advice will be appreciated. The result is a dangerous blockage of the TP valve and the risk of a BLEVE explosion. Paul.This condition is unsafe. Finally: I'd like to see a photo of that TPR valve and another of its data tag. I'm still nervous about the long term safety of this design. Georg Fischer Piping Systems, "CPVC Pipe", retrieved 12/23/12, GF Piping, Pennsylvania to $150 depending on where the building is located.
Discharge line termination point should be visible to observe any discharge. Even if a plumber charged a minimum of an hour's labor to unscrew the old valve and screw in the new one and its discharge tube that ought not amount to a substantial total (where I read "substantial" as hundreds of dollars) unless there was something rather unusual and costly going on in your home. Your local building code inspector might indeed approve routing the relief valve discharge to a hidden and harmless location provided a Tundish is installed so that leaks can be detected. heater to burst or explode.). In a photo above on this page you can see a flexible 3/4" copper tube used in the routing of the discharge of a TP valve from the top of a water heater. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap. & How? Where the valves cannot be tested in service, the user shall maintain and make available to the inspector records showing the test dates and set pressure for such valves. I came across a boiler where the fitting off the T&P and the extension to the floor is made of PVC. 4930 Motorized Deliming Pump Kit, [8] Rheem Electric Water Heater "Owners Guide and Installation Instructions", (Australian models) rheem.com.au/images/pdf/owners_dom-elec_121996C_0707.pdf, [10] 52 Questions and their Answers [about] Hot Water [Heaters, Explosions & Water Heater Safety], Watts Regulator Company (1973). I have a relief valve right on top of my steam boiler, it doesn't have a discharge outlet but it has openings right on top of it where i see some, if not too much steam coming out, it should be replaced or it is normal? We have no relationship with advertisers, products, or services discussed at this website.
[5] A.O. Some of the discharge tube is wrapped in foil and isn't visible so there may be other hazards. Slow drips easily leave scale that can clog a 1/8" diameter spiral tube with crimped end pretty quickly. These include hydronic heating boilers (hot water boilers), steam boilers, and all types of water heaters, both those that use a water storage tank or cylinder and those that heat water on demand such as tankless water heaters. (Hellemans 2009). 1. Safest would be to turn the heater OFF entirely until the plumbing is done correctly. My new tankless water heater is in a place in my basement (finished) where there is no floor drain. 2. Supersedes Form Nos. This is an unsafe condition as the operation of the temperature or pressure relief valve may be interfered with by the insulation and also because the valve cannot be inspected for evidence of leaks or failure. Really? I got this request for repairs for the hot water heater with a picture of the heater. These loadings could affect or prevent the proper operation of the device including proper reclosure after operating, Most descriptions of safe and proper TPR valve discharge piping presume that there is no copper pigtail drain and will specify, "The discharge piping should be sloped from the outlet to facilitate drainage." 5. I've tested this setup several times, though only with 140F water, not hotter water :-) - B.N. You might detect a clogged pigtail drain on an upwards-piped relief valve drain during an annual test of the TPR valve: the valve is opened to discharge and then closed; afterwards you should see a small volume of water exiting from the pigtail drain as the remaining water in the up-piped larger diameter TPR discharge tube drains out through the pigtail. The possibility of a scalding burn is obvious but do these accidents actually happen? Our Comment Box is provided by Countable Web Productions countable.ca, Click to Show or Hide Citations & References, COMMONLY USED RESIDENTIAL BUILDING CODES, IRC 2009, WISCONSIN PLUMBING CODE, Chapter SPS 382, DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, INSTALLATION, SUPERVISION, MAINTENANCE AND INSPECTION OF PLUMBING, CALIFORNIA 608.3 EXPANSION TANKS, AND COMBINATION TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF VALVES, CALIFORNIA 761. I much appreciate the discussion and polite well-intended argument. A "P" Trap could be installed about 10" under the T&P. Watts Water Technologies, No. When I spoke to the lead inspector in Berkeley CA they said they copied from San Jose CA.
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